The great salary debate
October 23rd, 2009, 6:52 pm · 82 Comments · posted by Jeff Thomas
Just because we can, does that mean we should?
That’s the real question. Few dispute that the name of each employee of the City of Colorado Springs, and his or her salary, is public record. When it comes to principle, I don’t detect much disagreement: It’s public information.
When it comes down to practice, the debate begins. It’s one thing to support the idea of public information. It’s another to actually see that information in public. And when we published the names of 2,300 city employees, their job titles and salaries, we caught a good deal of flak.
The criticism came in a few varieties.
First critique: Publishing the names violates employees’ privacy. Represented by:
. . . Not saying this isn’t public information, but by providing it in a searchable database and by releasing individual names, I think you stepped over the line.
There is much about an individual that remains private when they work for a government agency: Age. Weight. Phone number. Insurance policy number. Social Security number. Race and ethnicity. Direct-deposit account information. Pension contributions. Marital status. All of it private, and appropriately so.
Salary, however, is not private. It can’t be, really. One can hardly call himself a public employee if he doesn’t permit the public to examine what makes him an employee: his paycheck.
Anything less specific than a name-by-name accounting is permitting the city to escape ultimate accountability. Suppose the list contained only each job title and salary, with no names. How do you know that the salary figure for each job is correct? Do you take the city’s word for it? If not, who are you going to check it with? By attaching a name to each salary, the city has no choice but to be utterly truthful with each individual’s salary amount.
Same is true for, say, the supplies budget. Only when the city releases a copy of every last invoice it paid for office supplies can its supply spending be verified, because you can double-check each invoice with the supplier: Did the city really pay you this amount for these supplies? By attaching an invoice to each supply purchase, the city has no choice but to be utterly truthful with each individual purchase amount.
And if the city is is truthful with all the individual amounts, it is by definition truthful with the sum of those amounts — the total supplies budget that it publishes in its city documents. The city can say it spends $1 million a year on supplies. But only if it provides the individual invoices that add up to $1 million can that figure be trusted as accurate.
In other words, only by demonstrating accountability for the parts can the city be regarded as accountable for the whole — whether you’re talking about supplies, or salaries. The necessary ingredient is demonstration. And it can’t be demonstrated unless it’s actually done. The city can’t claim its payroll amounts per person are accurate unless it actually reveals them when asked. Given the tax measures on the city ballot and the intense debate over city spending priorities, it seemed to us to be a very good time to ask.
Second critique: Publishing the names of employees puts them at risk. Represented by:
Now with all the first and last names of city employees ready available, easily retrievable, and complete and organized, everyone that wants to can pick up a phone book or browse property records or perform other searches and can find out where the city employee lives along with their phone number.
True enough. But also true already. The names of public employees already are public information. Police officers wear badges with their names on them. Administrative staff have their names on their desks and cubicles. They put their names on public correspondence; state their names in public meetings; announce their names at school assemblies; list their names in government directories; publish their names on city websites.
My name, too, is in the phone book. And it’s published every day of the year, on page A2 of the newspaper. Anyone with the motivation can put 2 and 2 together, as easily as they could with the database we published.
Third critique: What’s good for the goose should be good for the gander. Represented by:
. . . What are YOUR salaries?! Dare you to publish them side by side … nah, you won’t. You’re like bullies, you dish it out but can’t take it.
We won’t reveal salaries of Gazette employees because the Gazette is a private employer.
You are free to withhold your financial support from The Gazette. Residents of Colorado Springs, however, are not free to withhold their financial support from the city. If you decline to pay the Gazette, you receive no newspaper. If you decline to pay the city, you end up in front of a judge.
This is a fundamental, profound difference. It is not trivial. It is something every applicant for a job in government understands: If I take this job, I trade away some information about me that otherwise would remain private.
Would Gazette employees like it if their salaries were published? Of course not. Do city employees like it? Knowing them as we do as our neighbors and friends — folks just like us — I’m pretty sure the answer is no, they do not.
I don’t wish to inflict discomfort on any city employee. I wish to give citizens the information they need to hold their public institutions accountable. A measure of discomfort on the part of public employees is an inescapably necessary part of that equation.
Fourth critique: Publishing salary data is only making an already bitter public debate more nasty. Represented by:
Way to go, gazette- you got the response you were hoping for. Let’s whip everyone up into a froth and pit people against each other. Instead of trying to find ways to work through this mess, everyone’s knifing each other in the back.
The online comment threads at gazette.com are, at best, a funhouse-mirror reflection of public opinion. Even by that measure, however, the online discussion today took a noticeable turn toward the analytical. Given a large dose of plain old facts, many readers have begun to debate the merits of the arguments in favor and opposed to 2C, based on some actual data about what city employees are paid. The visceral tone of the argument, characterized as “the untrustworthy city needs to get in touch with reality and cut spending” vs. “you all want services but aren’t willing to pay for them,” has changed. It has taken at least a slight turn toward the rational and dispassionate — at least in the early hours since the data were posted. That is a positive development, however meager, in my opinion.
In an opinion column submitted to the Gazette for publication this weekend, the executive director of the Colorado Springs Police Protective Association had this to say about the debate on our opinion pages surrounding 2C and employee pay: “The authors of these articles have played to the lowest common denominator using inaccurate, incomplete, and, at times, false information to argue their points.”
“The correct data and information,” he said, “will show that the employees of this city have not been fairly portrayed.”
Correct data and information. Just what the PPA ordered. Now we’ve published it. And now you get to decide what to do with it.
Okay, I’ve had my say. Now it’s your turn:
82 Comments
Leave a Reply
-
Gazette editors
Jeff
Thomas is the editor. He is responsible for the news that appears
in the Gazette, in print and online. 
Larry
Ryckman is the managing editor. He oversees our reporting teams and the news published at gazette.com.
Dena
Rosenberry is the section editor. She coordinates the production of the printed Gazette.
Jim O'Connell is the sports editor. He is responsible for all sports news coverage, online and in print.
Stuart
Wong is the director of photography, responsible for all news
images that appear in print and as part of local coverage at gazette.com.
Joanna
Bean is the Resources team editor. Her team covers business, utilities, transportation and outdoor recreation.
Joel Millman is a the public affairs team editor. He supervises coverage of government and public safety. 
Warren
Epstein is editor of the entertainment team. He is responsible for arts, food, and other entertainment coverage.
Barb Cotter is the team editor in charge of education coverage, religion, health and Side Streets.
Journalism 101- Newspapers aren't doing as badly as you think. - By Daniel Gross - Slate MagazineFirst I've ever seen circulation revenue exceed advertising revenue.
- Mobile Web Is Taking Over the World (and Other Internet Trends)
- Derek Powazek - Spammers, Evildoers, and OpportunistsUse social networking like a real human being, not a robot.
- Post-Medium Publishing
- Cory Doctorow: Chris Anderson's Free adds much to The Long Tail, but falls short | Technology | guardian.co.ukBlimey! This redistribution of income is trickier than I thought!
- 7 Ways to Make News Sites More SocialThe Gazette is mostly up to speed on some, but not all of these ideas. Like the concept of a Twitterstream.
- News Innovation | Discussing the future of news
- Guardian Mulls Paid Members' Club; Rules Out Pay Wall, Calling It 'Stupid' | paidContentPay for online news? "A stupid idea"
- NewsFuturist: A second look at print-online attention statsStatistics, or damn lies?
- Comments on stories : News-Record.com : Greensboro & the Triad's most trusted source for local news and analysisHere's an interesting idea. Should we try it?
- Newspapers aren't doing as badly as you think. - By Daniel Gross - Slate Magazine
- Advertising Info
- Place An Ad
- Today's Ads
- Yellow Pages
- About Us
- Contact Us
- Contact the Newsroom
- Advertise
- Community Advisory Board
- Gazette Speakers' Bureau
- Work For Us
- Community Advisory Board
- Copyright and Reprint Information
- Subscriber Services
- Subscriber Services
- Manage Print Subscription
- Pay Your Bill Online
- Vacation Stop
- Archives
- Newspaper Ads
- Buy Our Photos
- Online News Environment
- Green Edition
- E-Newsletters/ Alerts
- RSS Feeds
- Mobile
Mr. Thomas,
You should be ashamed of yourself! The story would have had the same impact without publishing the names of the employees. God forbid anyone uses the information to hurt a city employee or their families. You have made it too easy for someone to find our information. Until you have a gang member holda gun to your head and say “if he dies, you die” I guess you wouldn’t understand.
No wonder your paper is in trouble.
absolutely publish along with other “hidden” information affecting costs to all city residents.Why USOC costs were not opened for vote? Because the CC didn’t have to by sidestepping the process. How many residents would really want to mortgage city property so that our Mayor, some members of City Council & other influential residents could be boastful concerning their “accomplishments”. ?
Its a little late now, isn’t it? There was no need to publish names.
The same information could have been put out by job title rather than name.
Such as Parks maintenance, $35,000
Parks director, $135,000
Police Officer, $66,000
etc…….
Naming the employee was not pertinant information to the article and can bring problems to the employee themselves. Most police officers I know dont even tell their neighbors what job they do for fear that their houses and families will targeted. This is somthing people in normal jobs dont have to worry about.
Thanks to your article, now ALL my neighbors know what my job is and where I live. They knew my name but only knew I was a city employee. This changes how I live and my privacy.
I dont care how much my mechanic , Bill Smith, makes or how much my trashman, John Miller. Why should someone know how much I make as a person by name.
I wonder if the Gazette employees feel any guilt at all. Or are they so filled with the ‘Freedom of the Press” holiness. They print names of victims, city employees, etc under the banner of the Press. Yes the info is available on police logs and city employee info is mostly available other ways, but come on Gazette employees have some feeling and some heart. Do something good for people instead of exposing them to danger.
Sir, with all due respect, you comparing individuals being able to find your information to someone being able to find a police officer’s isn’t even in the same book, much less the same page. Most in this city are good, hard-working people but there is a portion of our community who are not and sometimes come into contact with police. There is a portion of this minority population that may take the opportunity to hurt a police officer, on duty or off. You likely don’t have the same safety concerns sitting behind your extra large screen as those who protect us. The Gazette’s article could have been just as effective if it had listed the number of employees in a particular position / pay range rather than going through the unnecessary step of outing city employees in a number of positions and then having the nerve to complain that the city didn’t provide it in a searchable format. Shame on you Mr. Thomas for promoting this type of “investigative reporting.”
I think ‘public’ in the phrase ‘public-sector’ is a clue that you will be subject to more scrutiny than had you chosen to toil in the private-sector. With distrust as high as it is with elected officials and city/county staff, I am not sure this information can be anything but helpful to those who maintain a steady watch on what is being done on our behalf.
Mr. Thomas,
Maybe next time it might serve you well to LOOK at the name on the badge of a police officer. It says A. B. Smith. Not Albert Brown Smith. There was no reason, other than this papers mere spite for CSPD and CSFD, to publish full first and last names. NONE.
There is no justification you can make or argument you can come up with to convince most of us otherwise. This paper is trash because of the trash their reporters put out and this meager attempt after the fact to justify what you did is ridiculous.
Yes the upper echelon does put their names on the door and on their desk. Why? Because that is part of their job. They are not out there with the rank and file trying to clean up this city. They sit in there offices and type memos to each other. They are not in danger day in and day out. But thanks for making an already tough job even tougher for them. I hope you are proud of what you do for a living, because regardless of what this rag says about them, I know they are.
My former career was a Sr. Recruiter for two different Fortune 500 companies. As a major corporation, we worked with salary profiles on a quarterly basis to measure our employees. One of the many tools we used was salary.com which compiles data across the U.S. based on titles.
Attached is a sample of Police Officers showing the average pay scale. Interesting information:
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_LG12000003.html
It’s evidence that the current structure of government is not working for Colorado Springs.
Well Chacon, Jeff, Wayne, Lance, and Maria Hyphen whatever, Are you happy? Your “journalistic integrity” is amazing. Skewed numbers, reporting only the part of the story that shows police in dis-favor, and generally biased reporting seems to be your normal work practice.
We go to work with guns. We have to, because we never know when that guy wants to kill us. Every single call I go to has the potential to send me to the morgue instead of home that night. Every fire guy going into a building knows that he does so at risk of his life.
Now you post my name next to a salary, like it matters. Then Chacon throws a hissy fit because the data provided wasn’t search able. It wasn’t enough to just post 300 police officers at 66,000? you had to list them by name? I’ve been challenged off duty at a store because of my job, and that was just facial recognition. Now every time I hand my debit card to someone, what if they recognize my name and decide that’s a good card to skim and use.
I understand that you don’t have any honor or sensibility. I understand that you don’t adhere to the time honored practice of journalistic integrity. I understand that Chacon wouldn’t know honest reporting if it bit him on the eyeball, but you’ve gone too far. You push the limit all the time, and now you’ve crossed the line.
700 of my brothers and sisters now have to think about stuff like their debit cards, their mail, their checks, their pizza delivery man. My 700 brothers and sisters have to wonder now how to regain the anonymity they had last week, and lost because of the arrogance of your “newspaper” and your despicable actions.
Are you proud? Are you happy with the response? My father, a 25 year subscriber to your “newspaper” will be canceling his subscription Monday. I canceled mine long ago.
Tim Ives Wrote
“Naming the employee was not pertinant information to the article and can bring problems to the employee themselves. Most police officers I know dont even tell their neighbors what job they do for fear that their houses and families will targeted. This is somthing people in normal jobs dont have to worry about. ”
—————————————————————-
Jeff Thomas and his anti-police former Soldier of Fortune writers don’t give a sh*t about your or your families safety as a city police officer or the safety of the undercover officers that were exposed just because this paper wants to spread their anti-government views and torpedo the upcoming election.
These dudes are all about themselves and because they’re under bankruptcy they want to take everyone down with them. With freedom comes great responsibility and the 70 year old woman that opens her paper believes the lies this paper prints because it used to have credibility. Now it’s just a sinking ship soon to go the same way as the Rocky Mountain News. And if were lucky, that day will be soon.
“There is much about an individual that remains private when they work for a government agency: Age. Weight. Phone number. Insurance policy number. Social Security number. Race and ethnicity. Direct-deposit account information. Pension contributions. Marital status. All of it private, and appropriately so.”
Sir,
Do you really believe that any half rate hacker, with a computer and internet, that now has first and last names of every police officer in the City cannot find the aforementioned information?
“Anything less specific than a name-by-name accounting is permitting the city to escape ultimate accountability. Suppose the list contained only each job title and salary, with no names. How do you know that the salary figure for each job is correct?”
If you felt the readers truly needed each and every name for accurate reporting, then why the need to create a search and sort method by specific title, i.e. police sergeant? Sounds like your way of “justifying” your negligent and irresponsible actions!
You shouldn’t have published them because the salaries of city employees are absolutely irrelevant to this whole debate about the city budget.
You’re making the argument that employees of City of Colorado Springs make way too much money, and that the way to solve the city budget problem is to give city employees an across the board 10% pay cut.
I’m not opposed to a pay cut. My husband is a Springs firefighter and I’ve already accepted that he may lose his job completely. Fine. We’ll deal with it.
But I’m completely stunned you would actually imply that somehow 2300 city employees should be responsible to pay for the needs of 500,000 city residents.
If 2C passes it would mean about $200 added to the property taxes of most homeowners. If 2C doesn’t pass and they decide to try and cover the shortfall through a pay cut, it will mean my family pays $5000.
Hmm. Every family pays $200 to keep parks open, fund emergency services, and get the streets plowed. Or a select few, who ALREADY serve the city, get to pay $5000.
Not to mention I don’t even live in the city of Colorado Springs. I’ll pay that $5000 so that Springs residents can get their services.
I just don’t get how anyone thinks this makes sense.
My husband grosses $51,000, as the Gazette so kindly published online today. Wow, we are so overpaid! Where’s my home in Aspen and annual European vacation?
Vote whichever way your conscience tells you. Just be aware of the faulty logic that some people are trying to push through the media.
“Should the Gazette have published names of city employees along with their salaries?”
Perhaps you should have asked this question first? Looks like you are loosing in the ethical decision making pole! But wait, that would be giving you credit for being an ethical person.
CALL THE ADVERTISERS OF THIS PAPER TODAY AND TELL THEM YOU WONT DO BUSINESS WITH THEM AS LONG AS THEY ADVERTISE IN WHAT HAS BECOME A WEIRD, MILITANT, PUBLICATION
You have got to be kidding me. If you were going to publish that info, it should have been done with some modicum of responsibility in mind. You didn’t, because you simply don’t care.
Your reasoning for publishing names so that you could put a person with the salary to avoid wondering if the City had given you accurate data is simply worthless. Unless you audit each of those names individually, you still will not know for sure if what the City gave you is correct. Even still, you didn’t do it with the quality of any of those individual’s work in mind, you simply printed their salary because you desperately want to berate the City, yet again, at any cost.
Congratulations for distracting the voters from the real issue of funding the City’s responsibilities by instead placing the burden upon its employees. I don’t believe you are for 2C at all, despite your words. You have shown your true colors, and given Mr. Gallagher an open mic and an excuse for something other than a genuine solution.
Bravo, you should be very proud of yourselves for your excellent investigative reporting skills.
Rachelle says:
If 2C passes it would mean about $200 added to the property taxes of most homeowners. If 2C doesn’t pass and they decide to try and cover the shortfall through a pay cut, it will mean my family pays $5000.
Hmm. Every family pays $200 to keep parks open, fund emergency services, and get the streets plowed. Or a select few, who ALREADY serve the city, get to pay $5000.
———————————————————–
What people for get in this whole issue is that city employees pay taxes too! That whole argument of “I pay your salary” is a joke. If I’m a city employee I pay my salary too, and I pay the salary of my fellow employees, the mailman, the teacher (with property taxes), the military (with my federal income tax), the military retiree (with my federal income tax) and 2C out of MY property taxes if it passes.
The ONLY point you made that even remotely legitimizes the publishing of the names is to verify the parts as the sum of the whole. As the salary for each position is already public information did you really think the city would send you false data when it could be easily verified? Weak, weak argument Gazette!!! I’ve canceled my subscription and am encouraging all my friends and neighbors to do the same.
Does anyone still subscribe to this fish wrap? Thomas acts like he’s running the Washington Post or something with his condesending tone like he’s teaching high school students in a journalism class. The truth is, The Colorado Springs Independant is a far more balanced, much better written paper and it’s free at 7-11! I’ve seen better written middle school newsletters than the Ragette.
I’ve got to tell you, I’m proud of the salary I make because I fought hard to get it and I work harder every night because being a Police Officer is something I enjoy. Its good, honest work that puts me in direct contact with any number of wonderful people in this city and, on occasion, lets me give back by putting those who don’t want to peacfully coexist somewhere special. If the Gazette, in its infinite wisdom, wants to publish my wages, I’ll happily defend them to anyone who would ask.
However, there is no value in putting names to the numbers. You’ve changed the direction of a discussion to put things right with the city by focusing on something about which you have no right to decide. City benefits are decided by City Council, and thankfully you’re not on it.
Bring it on.
The Gazette requested the list because of ‘THE BUDGET”. This information is pertinent in understanding an Operating Budget. Folks, this city is in trouble, not only with their budget but their leadership.
The names did not have to be published, but the titles and salaries should of.
The Gazette Wrote:
I don’t wish to inflict discomfort on any city employee. I wish to give citizens the information they need to hold their public institutions accountable. A measure of discomfort on the part of public employees is an inescapably necessary part of that equation.
—————————————————————————–
STFU Jeff nobody’s buying the nonsense you’re selling! You’re not an intellectual, you run a bankrupt tabloid. Take your Thomas Paine wanna be garbage and try selling it to a community college journalism class cuz we aint buying it here! You try to paint a picture that the Gazette staff sat around in a large conference room as you all chewed on your pencils and debated the merits or releasing the names.
When in reality it was probably alot of fists pumping in the air and high fives as the IT guy announced he could creat a searchable database with all the names of city employees. Then there was probably alot of “that will show those city SOB’s!” etc. etc.
The agenda of the paper truly got in the way here…It’s sad that this city has one—-slanted—anti government paper. Yeah the 20% of citizens that hate police love you, but I hope the rest bury you!!
Gazette, do not worry that the city people are upset. The general public already had a bad taste in their mouth for city employees. There are probably many police officers right now looking for trumped up charges to place on many of your staff .
Funny how the truth upsets all of them huh?
Connie says:
Gazette, do not worry that the city people are upset. The general public already had a bad taste in their mouth for city employees. There are probably many police officers right now looking for trumped up charges to place on many of your staff .
Funny how the truth upsets all of them huh?
———————————————————————————-
Sorry the cops had to bust you for blowing those goats. You’re probably what the cops call “a frequent flier” so go talk out your hatred of cops with your 12 step group- see ya!
HAHAHAHA Connie, your so witty.
“Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself.
The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for?”
- William J. Bennett
In a lecture to the United States Naval Academy
November 24, 1997
When you call 911, in the middle of the night, it is YOUR police and fire that will not turn and run but instead will serve YOU, our community, with our last breath! Why do we do this? Because it is what was placed in our heart. We love our city and will do what is necessary to make it a better place for those who choose to make this their home.
You must decide, “at what cost you,” are willing to pay?
Jeff Thomas’s Education
University of Wyoming
1983 — 1985
Wow Jeff! Two years at the University of Wyoming what an intellectual you are! Hell, most city cops have at least a Bachelors and almost all ranks from Sgt. up have Graduate Degrees. Sounds like your just jealous of their pay?
And your other editor Laugesen reportedly was a writer for Soldier of Fortune and an article he wrote was cited as the inspiration for the Oklahoma City Bombing http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,17515,00.html
Heck of a staff you got there!
I think it was gratuitous that you printed the individual names and their salaries. Rather than just the name of their ‘position’ in the City - like ‘Senior Planner, Economic Development Department - $XXXX. I fail to see where printing the ‘individual’s’ salary by name bears any relationship to the political issue of whether or not the ‘job’ of Senior Planner is worth, say, $75,000.
Its also a lame excuse to say, related to ‘putting them at risk’ that any crook could find out by other means what any employee, by name, makes.
While I have not been involved in any way with the city, I have been the target of a criminal extortion attempt. Which, while I handled it fine (the crook went to jail after the police and I trapped him trying to collect a payment. Some risk to me if he had been carrying a gun), it upset my family. He looked up my military retirement income. and decided I was a good target for a shakedown. You just made that easy for a lot of city employees.
So I think you already HAVE “inflicted discomfort on any city employee”
Looks to me that list of 67 employees by NAME making over $100,000 are a now a juicy target for some crooks. And I can just about guarantee you that some who are not crooks in this town, will take that list of all those making $50,000 or more and WILL make cold sales calls on them and their family members during dinner, knowing what the city-breadwinner in that house and telephone number makes.
Finally, by ‘personalizing’ the question of what city employees make, you have just lowered the morale of the city workforce.
But turn about is fair play. Who the h*** do you think you are publishing the personal - by name - (not by position) income of every city worker?
So how about printing the salaries of all YOUR Gazette staff? Its not good enough to say ‘but we are a ‘private’ company’. I contract with you for my paper. What do you make Jeff? And what do you pay that anonymous Editorial Writer who spends all his time spewing his Libertarian line designed to dictate to elected officials what they should or should not be doing, and trying to influence the voters to vote no on 2C and yes on 300. I’d like to make my own mind up whether (1) he is worth it and (2) is he doing it just for the money, since he is nothing less than a paid Lobbiest for Libertarianism (Don’t give me the line its all for idealistic journalism. The Gazette is a for profit business, and your whole political editorial/publisher line is about marketplaces and tax money.)
Funny, how the people in this town defend our police staff so much. They must not have ever needed them in the past. Have you ever had a friend in a car accident? Have you ever had COSPD claim that he “ran away from the scene” because he was black? Come to find out the next day the other car in the accident sent him to his death over circle bridge because they were too damn prejudice or assuming to go look for him because he was black? Don’t tell me this Police department we have in this city is out for justice. They are just in this for the paycheck and say they did their job. Shame, had they listened to his friends, he would be alive today, but because he was not caucasian, he is not with us today. What other excuse would he have, other than to run, god forbid a black man doesn’t even have a speeding ticket to arrest him for, let’s let him set in a creek bed to die… Way to go COSPD…. hope he wasn’t carrying weed!!! then you would have caught a drug dealer instead of a murderer! We know that’s the biggest prize! Screw the killers, karma will get them, but we must get the black pot smokers 1st!
hey tony this is the godfather talking to yous, go blow it out of your backside. I hope you are a cop so I can actually talk crap to you and you cannot have me lose my job. You are a cop or the wife of or friend or relative of one or you would not be so bent out of shape. I hope and pray with all my heart that the not so great city council chops the heck out of your salaries. Just to be as hateful as you are. Proof positive in all the posts by most all of you city employees that you are not worthy to wear the uniform and surely not worthy of the high paychecks you get for doing nothing. I have absolutely no respect for you, none. I know it does not matter to you what I or the public think of you but you are all over paid over paid over paid over paid. NO ON 2C , YES ON 300.
truth I must be witty it got your goat didn’t it? That is the reason I am here to get all of you so mad you do something real stupid and you all will because you cannot help yourselves. Losers.
The information is public, period. If the paper wants to provide that information in print, so be it. As employees of the public that information should be readily available and easily searchable. I believe transparency is a major factor in the trust the public gives it’s government. Without that transparency the public will always work against it’s government. It appears to me that some of the posters here are very defensive about their pay. If you deserve what the people pay you to do, then stand proud. If you prefer to whine, and complain about it being public, then there might be a conflict of interest. Sadly, this is one of the many prices that a public servant must pay. Please read 1984 if you disagree, George Orwell had much foresight in this matter.
and tony I have never been busted by any cop for any reason. I obey the law ,the city , state and federal government already steal enough of my money, I will not break any laws so they can steal some more.
I am sure many of you fine upstanding police officers have driven drunk and made sexual advancements and assaults and you got away with it. Proof in that is with the DA who was caught on tape slugging down some brewskis and then driving, he got away with that except the public got rid of him. Law enforcement is the most hypocritcal force in the world. Put that in your rolling papers and smoke it , everyone knows you have the best weed.
Absolutely, they feed at the public trough;so, why shouldn’t they have their amount of mash known to the farmer.
Connie says:
“I am sure many of you fine upstanding police officers have driven drunk and made sexual advancements and assaults and you got away with it. Proof in that is with the DA who was caught on tape slugging down some brewskis and then driving, he got away with that except the public got rid of him. Law enforcement is the most hypocritcal force in the world. Put that in your rolling papers and smoke it , everyone knows you have the best weed.”
———————————————————————–
Lexi, is that you? I didn’t know you had computer access at your halfway house. Hey, your parole officer called, said you failed your urinalysis back to Comcor you go! See ya! Oh and stay away from those goats you crazy lady you!
proamerica says:
October 24, 2009 at 8:28 pmAbsolutely, they feed at the public trough;so, why shouldn’t they have their amount of mash known to the farmer.
—————————————————
???? What is that. some line you saw on HEE HAW or on the Andy Griffith Show? Put your teeth back in grandpa-can’t understand your folsky wit.
I’d love to have a battle of wits with unarmed bafoons but Connie just called me over for some beers before she has to turn herself in. So I’ll be joining her down on South Nevada. Proamerica, put your teeth in and join us hayseed. See ya!
As a former journalist, I understand why The G chose to publish the names, especially considering the principles the paper was founded on and strives to maintain today. I would hope that the paper determined potential risks from publishing the names of the employeees. This is unfortunately something meda outlets must deal with as part of the job - does the reward outweigh the risk? Since citizens of Colo Springs must be taxed in order to pay these salaries, I agree with the publishing of the positions and salaries. The moral part of me gets a little twinge in the gut, though, about the names. Hence the reason I got out of journalism… couldn’t reconcile my conscience with the job requirements.
The fact of the matter is, if you choose to work in the public sector, certain information is public. Any person could request this information from the city and could find it out for themselves. Guess what? Anyone can see what I paid for my house, when I bought it, what type of mortgage I have, where I live, etc by doing a public records property search. To have certain benefits in this country, we must also take certain risks. To be a public servant, you must be accept transparency of certain dimensions of your position.
Though Jeff sees a great reward in the direction of the 2C debate amongst the Gazette.com armchair quarterbacks (which I agree with), I see something much greater and bigger. As Thomas Jefferson said, “What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? ”
“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”
This is a very good thing.
wow connie…you don’t even know if the guy works for the city and you have flipped out against ALL cops….that’s the educated voters we need. Sarcasm off
It is obvious he does when he or she gets so upset . See you guys can dish it out but you feel that you should not get it back. Again, hypocrits.
>>And what do you pay that anonymous Editorial Writer who
>>spends all his time spewing his Libertarian line
Colonel Hughes (ret) is still the kindest, bravest, most wonderful man I’ve ever met!
Woudn’t you like to play a game of Solitaire, Dave?
Publishing job titles, the number of employees with that title, and the lowest, highest, and average salary would have been adequate to make the point..
However, I am LOL at Tim Ives. Don’t your neighbors already know where you live? And using your full name as your posting name and stating that you are a police officer isn’t exactly doing anything to further your privacy concerns. The format of the Gazette database required that you specifically look up a name to learn the salary, meaning that readers have to put in a little thought and effort, rather than having all of the names right in front of them.
Thomas Jefferson said it best…
When you take on a public responsibility, you become public property.
You are right it is public information. Position and title would have sufficed - in my opinion. And, if you are going to do this to city employees, why not be comparative to other public employees, like teachers, county, judges, down the line? Also, your comment is made that city employees must be aware that they give up their right for privacy in such matters as a public entity. In the private sector don’t you sometimes get financial considerations when when you have to give up something of value - like your privacy? You state you don’t have to share your salary because you are private - fine, I understand - but why not do it anyway and show some ethics - something the Gazette has never had it the last 30 years!
simpleasthat: Please see the comparable county database at:
http://www.gazette.com/sections/infocenter/salaries-el-paso/
I guess a lot of people have forgotten what the word ‘public’ means.
Bunch of whiny babies for the most part. “Oh boo hooo somebody knows how much I make.”
Good. It’s my money you are taking, I have a right to know EXACTLY where it is.
I - WE - employee the city, state and feds. Shouldn’t the bosses KNOW what they pay their employee’s?
City employee’s are BY DEFINITION - public service. PUBLIC.
And all the privacy mongers are idiots anyway. For only a few dollars, if one were so inclined, they could pay any number of services to retrieve a GREAT deal of information about anyone they want.
Stop being babies and so afraid of everyone. That’s half the problem, the fear - everyone has a 6′ tall fence around their yard.
I don’t think publishing the salaries of city workers is out of line by itself, but it speaks volumes about The Gazette’s overall attempt to pit “taxpayers” against “city workers.”
Look at the front-page lead of October 24, ballyhooing the news that “Most City Workers Make Well Above Average Wage.”
I’ve been in journalism and publishing long enough to recognize a top-down story when I see it. No editor worth his or her salary would have had the temerity to accept a “news” story comparing a database of largely professional workers (city administration) against a database of largely non-professional workers (city at large) unless it was commanded from the top. The four decks, especially the middle two, announcing that “90 percent” of city workers receive a “higher than average annual wage” were especially telling.
This is a bogus and disgusting display of journalism. If I know, city council knows, and every department head knows that Colorado city workers are paid in a manner commensurate with other cities on the Front Range—in fact, we’re at the low end—then you know it too. I know you know it because your story says you talked to the City’s Human Resources Director, who would have told you.
Now that the Gazette has done its best to blame “overpaid” city workers for the current budget crisis, here’s my question: If City Council decides cutting salaries is the best of available painful solutions to balancing the budget, how do they mitigate the obvious downside of such a decision—demoralization of the workforce?
Don’t like the pay or the reduction? There’s signs above the appropriate doors saying “EXIT”. Feel free to use one.
So let me try to get this straight. “Anything less specific than a name-by-name accounting is permitting the city to escape ultimate accountability.”
Your words, right? Accountability? CSFD has always and will always be held accountable for its actions. Try a taste of your own medicine and hold yourselves accountable for your false allegations and mis-informations.
I look forward to the day when I get a call to run on you in my district and you are HOMELESS. The fire and police departments will be around long after “The Leaflet” closes up shop, SOON!
Next time we hire, take a test!
For all of those who think the city workers are over paid and under worked, there is a simple question for you? Why haven’t you applied for one of these great jobs. Are you scared to serve the public, or do you just like being able to point fingers at other people while you hide behind your private job.
I have no problem with the slaries of city employees being published for the public to see, however listing the name of every empolyee was completely ignorant of this “paper”. You have put the hard working police officers of this city at a risk that you can’t even imagine. Did you ever think that they have put some seriously bad violent people away? Did you think that those bad people might have friends on the outside that will now try to hurt them, their elderly parents, their children when they are getting out of school Your publisher is a zeolt, he promotes violence and has views that terrorists use to justify their murders. Just like he is using this “paper” to promote his lonatical ideologies.This has gone far past the city budget, it’s gone past whether or not city employees are paid fairly or not. It seems that your paper is attempting to start a militant uprising against the legal goverment of the United States, and you all should be considered traitors.
Great post Speechless….they won’t admit it, but people like the editors at the crapzette are our countrys enemy
Here is why we needed the names. On October the 11, 2009, the city was saying that 1,805 people were paid from the general fund. Now, we see that the city is paying 2,300 people. Did we hire the additional 495 people, within the last week? I think not. As taxpayer, shouldn’t we know where our money is being spent.
John you needed the numbers not the names. Every city employee thier freinds and family, every GOD loving true American, unlike the radical zeolts that hide behind the “freedom of the press” badge of this paper, needs to boycot it. The true republicans know this is crap, the domocrates know this is crap, and educated people know this is crap. It is nothing more than an attempt to inflame people to revolte against this great country. Everyone city employee everyone that sees this as is crap needs to cancel their subscription and stop doing business with establishments that support this “paper”. This paper is an enemy of the state in my OPINION and should be treated as such.
Seriously John, you could have just called me and I would have told you how much I make. Don’t forget I also volunteer with you and don’t make a dime protecting the taxpayers of the County too. You needed are names?
Tim Ives says: Most police officers I know dont even tell their neighbors what job they do for fear that their houses and families will targeted.
———————————————————————————————
Please substantiate this statement with facts.
However, I can see a bit of fallout as a result of this name/salary information being released. Now City workers will know what the person at the next desk is earning and will ask “Why?”
Rachelle says: …the salaries of city employees are absolutely irrelevant to this whole debate about the city budget.
—————————————————————————————
What?!!? Salaries, benefits and pension make up the largest part of the City budget and if not reined in now - especially the pensions — at some point in the future COS will be in the same boat as California — BANKRUPT! And the pension plans will be scrapped in bankruptcy court. So let’s start reducing costs now while we can voluntarily do so.
Just to show how the gazette likes to put up false facts, everytime you come to this page you can vote in the poll, no a very accurate measure, guess all the empolyees can just keep logging in and run up the numbers and then say see I told you. You have no crediablity Gazette you are a joke to journalisam
It was wrong and you know it. The only reason you decided to publish this database was for more hits on this dying, bankrupt newspaper. Sure we could have gotten that information for ourselves…but NO ONE wanted to, Gazette. I hope the ones who are affected by your lame attempt at “journalism” will sue this rag out of existence, once and for all.
Bye-bye, Gazette!
First, I am a police officer with CSPD. I know by being a city employee that anything I do can be released to the public and scrutinized. I understand that aspect of my job, but including names with the salaries was inappropriate. The press is allowed certain freedoms but there is an ethical dilemma here. Could the same information have been presented without posting the names and still provided the public the same information? My salary information is already posted on the city website for the public to view.
A majority of us are not worried about our own safety but the safety of our family. I know there are risks associated with my job but I am willing to take them. I take precautions to prevent my information from becoming easy to obtain. The becomes more and more difficult due to the internet and other searches of my personal information. For example, I am not in the phone book and I have blocked my information through other public searches.
On the other hand, my family should not have to be put at risk. My job is dangerous enough already without having to worry about my family. On a day to day basis, we deal with people that are capable of anything. There is legislation in this state that helps to protect me and my family. For example, Colorado House Bill 02-1113 states “it is unlawful for a person to knowingly to make available on the internet personal information about a peace officer if the dissemination of the personal information poses an imminent threat to the peace officer’s safety or the safety of the peace officer’s immediate family and the person making the information available on the internet knows or reasonably should know of the imminent and serious threat.”
The question I have is “Why are you asking this question now after the information has already been released?” It is too late now. The Gazette has already released the information. Maybe this was something that should have been investigated before releasing the information. Once again, the Gazette prints something before actually thinking about what it has done.
Pueblo County’s entire database of employee names and salaries are posted twice a year in the Colorado Tribune. It’s never caused a bit of trouble to those employees, and I’m one of them.
Re: “And your other editor Laugesen reportedly was a writer for Soldier of Fortune and an article he wrote was cited as the inspiration for the Oklahoma City Bombing http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,17515,00.html
Heck of a staff you got there!”
This highlights the emotional irrationality surrounding this issue. If you don’t like an editorial, blame the writer for causing the Oklahoma City Bombing. While you’re at it, why not blame me for Sept. 11.? For the record, the article you cite was written and published four years AFTER the Oklahoma City bombing. It was an examination of the fact police were being used for tasks that belong to the military. It had absolutely nothing to do with Tim McVeigh or Oklahoma City. The fact McVeigh was apparently looking at that article while sitting on death row, the day Fox News asked him why he built a bomb, does not somehow give it the magical ability to cause a terrorist act that was committed four years before it was published.
Wayne Laugesen
editorial page editor
The Gazette
Sounds like Wayne got his feelings hurt when someone said something that was not true. How does it taste? Hypocrite!
“If I take this job, I trade away some information about me that otherwise would remain private.”
Exactly. I am not as ruffled as some about having my name and salary posted. I know as a city employee there are certain realities of the job that come with it. I have often had to work shift work, midnights, many holidays spent without my family, missed lunches due to high volumes of calls, public scrutiny, direct threats to myself and my family. In addition, when I am in a public place, I have to think of things my fellow citizens in the private sector never dream of…such as encountering a suspect and having them recognize me shopping in the mall with my family. They know my name, where I work, who I’ve arrested, my salary, possibly where I live, and any other information can easily be obtained. I have a bachelor’s degree and have trained extensivley for the requirements of my job.
Anyone in this city has had the same opportunity to do all of those things and to work under those conditions to receive my pay. I am not on a special secret list of people who was offered this job. It’s been open to the public for as long as it’s been a position with the city. So, why haven’t all of you done what I’ve done to get here, and make this pay that is so enviable???
I know what it takes to be a doctor…but I don’t want to be one. Even though I know how much they make, i’m not willing to make the same sacrifices to earn that pay. So when it’s time to start balancing the budget, why is it that our paychecks become the target? We signed up for that pay and have done all that is required of us for that pay…just like any one of you could have.
I happen to come from a family where my spouse and I are both city employees. How would approximately $10,000 dip in your family budget affect you? Versus the estimated comparitively miniscule amounts per family of the property tax increase? AND- We don’t even live in the city limits!!!
It doesn’t matter to you though b/c if you can rest it on the very backs of the employees offering the services the city is trying to pay for that you will benefit from…why should you pay an extra $200 bucks (approximate #) out of your pocket?
Even if I were not a city employee, I am against a government trying to equal everyone’ s pay rather than equal everyone’s contribution to the services we all equally benefit from as a city. I have never personally needed the fire department or transit, yet I am willing to pay my share so that the city may benefit from it.
Maybe the city should set itself up like a private enterprise and charge for every service so that we all only pay for what we use. If you enter a park, pay $5. If you use the bus, pay for enough of it to run it. If you call a cop, pay for it like you pay for a pizza to be delivered. If you never use any of these services, sit at home with your paycheck that you have been promised for your work and that you have earned by doing exactly what it took to get the job you are doing that pays the salary you agreed to and live happily ever after with all your money. And I promise never to complain that you did not pay your fair share, or that your salary is “better” than mine. I will take my salary as well, and pay for what I use. I am willing to do that already. But, I’m not willing to pay for something close to the equivalent of what hundreds of you use while you all sit home and use the services I’m not even using and complain that my salary is “better” than yours, so mine should be reduced.
“Good. It’s my money you are taking, I have a right to know EXACTLY where it is.”
That’s the most idiotic thing I’ve ever heard. So, by getting a job as a city employee (whether it be fire fighter, police officer) and responding to your house fire, or providing a park in your neighborhood or investigating your home invasion…I’m “taking” your money. Good, like I explained above…the city should start charging the citizens for exactly what they use and we’ll never “take” your money until you need us and then, I hope you have to pay out the &^% for it.
We really have to ask ourselves if this “temporary” fix is fundamentally a viable alternative to really fixing the problems of our current situation. What will we do next year, and the year after that, etc? Continue to cut city wages by 10%? I can tell you now that cutting my family’s budget by 20% will reduce our spending tremendously, as is likely with all city employees. What will that do to the sales tax revenue? And when the economy returns to profit, will you all be willing to restore my salary to its original status? When all of you in the private sector are seeing record years and increased profit margins and raises, will you even think twice about how far my salary has decreased to pay for your services in those years?
I think it i a good idea to see how much city employees are paid. We will have a better idea if their salary is not enough or too much.
The idea of laying off people and possibly putting them and their family on the street is horrific. Knowing the salaries, we can say instead of laying off people, so and so could tolerate a salary reduction.
Or, we can say, we want all salaries capped at such and such.
Many of our citizens are making minimum wage with no benefits. Is it right that they should pay for the salaries of people who can purchase homes or even purchase expensive homes?
Maybe minimum wage earners will weigh in and say if the city wants to spend my hard earned cash on someone who works 1/2 the time I do, and makes twice as much, I think we should be reimbursed any sales or property tax, or special tax that we pay.
just thinking…
Anything less specific than a name-by-name accounting is permitting the city to escape ultimate accountability.
__________________________________________
So if our focus here is city accountability, how come there is nothing in the article to say why our city find itself in these financial straights? There isn’t a mention of the fact that we have no viable tax base. If accountability is the true aim of the Gazette, then that magnifying glass needs to point both ways. Its not the job of city employees to make up for city council shortcomings.
If the Gazette wants to check the salaries name by name, that’s fine. It’s another thing altogether to publish those names and salaries. Justify it anyway you want to it stinks, and feels a little too much like yellow journalism. The Gazette on many occasions has made an effort to gain the trust of it’s readership, by presenting both sides of the issue. Why then when it comes to the salaries of the people who serve our community– is the other side of the issue ignored? Where’s the article that talks about the financial sacrifices these families are going to have to endure if a 10% pay decrease is passed? Why isn’t D. Chacon investigating that part of the issue? Why isn’t J. Thomas opining about that? Probably because it lacks sensationalism–no one wants to hear about the financial sacrifices that city employees have already had to make. Making them sacrifice even more is just par for the course. It’s not controversial enough.
Let’s face it the Gazette’s stance on this is all wrong. Just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should do something. Just because the information is in your hands, still doesn’t mean it needs to be shared.
As the wife of a public employee, I feel that our privacy has been violated. Doesn’t matter that the information is out there to be had by individuals who want it, when it was published in the paper and became a matter of public discussion it became a violation of our privacy. No excuses this was a bad decision!
I see that the G has REMOVED the link to the city employees’ database! Frank Azar anyone???
LOL!
And, if Wayne and the rest of the G shills didn’t get it: YES, IT WAS WRONG TO POST THE NAMES AND WHAT THEY EARN. I hope Frank is taking notice! ::lol!::
Buh-bye (again!) Gazette!
I guess Barry Noreen didn’t read the poll on this page. Some “messenger!”
This is why some newspapers are called a “rag”: Slang A newspaper, especially one specializing in sensationalism or gossip.
(http://www.thefreedictionary.com)
Free speech is a right and privilege of a “civilized” society. Check the definition of “civil.”
Good thing I don’t have a subscription for this “rag,” I’d have to take time to cancel it.
There was no reason to publish the names. Job title and salary would have been sufficient. Just because you can do something does not make it right!
Once Again, the Gazette’s editors have displayed their lack of community devotion by jabbing a knife into the backs of the loyal citizens who have worked hard to make this city a good place to live. Just because information is of public record does not make it RIGHT for the Gazette to use that information to HARM citizens of this city. For years, this city has allowed this slimy rendition of an ill conceived newspaper to keep afloat financially by printing trash. Perhaps each of the 2300 City employees and the 4500 Memorial Health System employees and the CSU (sorry, unsure of your count) should STOP buying the Gazette,…encourage their friends, family, business partners, agencies, everyone they talk to STOP supporting this trashy and harmful attempt at journalism! Just BECAUSE you “CAN” does not mean it is right. You shame this town. You shame this community and YOU place those in harm’s way that protect and serve YOU. Colorado Springs…WAKE UP. Know the facts! The Gazette is NOT your source for the truth.
In case I did not say is well enough…YOU SHAME THIS TOWN. This paper is not worth placing in my dog’s kennel. My dog deserves better!
As a citizen of this great city, I feel for the employees of the City Of Colorado Springs. I believe the Gazette went too far this time (and Wayne). What bearing does putting this information out really have? I agree when I see the Police Officers upset about the information being put out there. I would not want my information out there for anyone to have. Police Officers deal with the scum of this city and they should not be treated this way. To show my support for the City and it’s Police and Fire members I have canceled my Gazette subscription a couple of days ago. God Bless the true hero’s of this great city!!! The Gazette needs to look themselves in the mirror and get there head out of an orifice that I cannot write on here!!!
COLORADO SPRINGS UNITE!! DIVIDED WE FALL, UNITED WE STAND!!!
From a 39 year native…
Lets show our undivided support for the great work that The CSPD, Memorial Hospital, The CSFD and all city employees do day in and day out, keep this town going.
CANCEL YOUR SUBSCRIPTION IMMEDIATLY!!!
Boycott businesses who advertise in the Rag!
Thank you Andrea L! I agree!!!
You absolutely crossed the line! The public employee info is available should someone need to obtain it for a reasonable purpose. Obtaining the information only to exploit it in print to support an ongoing childish “fued” is irresponsible at best. You did yourself and the Gazette no favors by exploiting the hard working people that make this city run. Settle your personal quarrels like a man…personally.
I’m in agreement that simply posting the position and the salary would have sufficed. I also wonder if the gazette still plans on posting Memorial employees information as they do not currently receive any of our tax dollars? If they did, then I’d know this wasn’t about presenting the public with facts about how our taxes are spent and so forth - happily enough they have not been posted as of yet.
I cancelled my subscription about a year ago when I saw how unfair the Gazette was to Memorial Hospital. It has always seemed like there was a personal vendetta against Memorial. This whole subject has just reiterated my decision to not read the Gazette. Memorial Hospital employees may be “City” employees, but they do not receive any city funds whatsoever.
To the city employees:
I agree with the vast majority of respondents here. Positions and related salaries would have made a point clearly. It is not anything I could not have dug up. Gazette - point taken.
But who wants to hear non-sensationalistic reporting? This story would have never surfaced without the names. God forbid we report truth and achieve a goal through strategy, wit, thought, and perseverance; all accomplished while protecting privacy and using tack and consideration.
A bit of sarcasm there, but the media has made its bed - to irrelevance. I still read the Gazette from time to time, only in a fashion similar to how I engage the Onion. I wonder if the Gazette buys into the “200% property tax increase” from the election campaign too?
I feel sorry for all of the city employees that deal with this abuse. I am certain there is “fat” in their jobs just as there is in any other - we are all human. Simply put, Thank you and keep up the good work. I hope I never need any of you at my house in the middle of the night, but I sleep better knowing you are out there. I am American and stand on my own two feet, but is sure nice to know there is someone looking out for me if I slip and fall. All I have to offer is a cup of coffee…
Next year the “talking heads” will attack someone else and we will all band together and support them as well. One more step for the media toward ambiguity.
Such a shame…Hang in there!